Kim Wardlow (00:09)
Hello, this is Kim Wardlow. I am your host for Navigating Life with Vision Loss, brought to you by Aftersight. And I am super excited today. I actually have a panel of really dynamic women on the show with me today. And I don't think I've had a panel, maybe once early on, but...
Christine Holmberg (00:10)
Yeah, that's a good Thank
Kim Wardlow (00:33)
Typically we just have one guest, maybe two. So this is going to be super fun. And we're talking about women in sports. So I have with me today, Shawn Cheshire, who did an earlier show in this sports series, talking about extreme sports, which is what she does, but she's also a Paralympian. Our own Penn Street, who is The Blind Chick and hosts The Blind Chick podcast with Moses Street.
Christine Holmberg (00:56)
Thanks.
Kim Wardlow (01:02)
And then Christine Holmberg, who's the executive director at Foresight Adventure Guides for the Blind. I still want to just call you Foresight Ski Guides. She also did a show earlier in the series talking about what Foresight does in terms of skiing. So if you haven't checked out Christine and Shawn's shows, you definitely should do that. But welcome, ladies. Welcome, all of you. I'm excited to have you on.
Christine Holmberg (01:13)
Fine.
Kim Wardlow (01:32)
all at the same time.
Penn Street (01:33)
Thank you. Thank you.
Christine Holmberg (01:34)
Thank you.
Shawn (01:34)
Thank you.
Kim Wardlow (01:37)
So as I said, we're going to talk about women in sports, but and there's all the aspects of sports and exercise and, you know, all those physical things about sports. But it can also be a lot about other types of things, building confidence, even healing using, you know, activities and sports as a way to you know, heal from emotional pain. Obviously, sometimes we do that to recover from, you know, physical injuries, but also emotional injuries. So I'm just curious, and each of you can answer this, but I'll start with you, Shawn. When you think about women's blind sports right now, what feels like it's most important to talk about?
Shawn (02:30)
Well, I just think it needs to be talked about just more in general, but I feel like the conversation needs to be outside of the blind world, like sighted cycling communities, sighted running communities, sighted trail running communities, sighted climbing communities, sighted water sports communities, whatever sport it is, I feel like the conversation needs to be
Penn Street (02:53)
Yeah.
Shawn (02:59)
within the sighted communities about blind women and activities, whether it's competitive or not.
Kim Wardlow (03:10)
So really just bringing that into, I guess you'd say the mainstream so that it's all one instead of being separated out.
Shawn (03:18)
Yeah, mean, as long as, I mean, it's easy for in the blind community for us to take each other seriously. Like I'm a serious blind woman, extreme adventure athlete. But if the conversation isn't in these sighted communities that do the same sports or sports that they're interested in, then it's, you know, the lack of awareness. We're not talked about as if we're important as a sighted outdoor adventurer or. There's still this segregation between us and them. And so the conversations really need to be intertwined, not only in the blind communities, but in the sighted communities as well. So they accept us as another athlete, period. Yeah.
Penn Street (04:01)
Mm-hmm. the conversation should, like when I saw this conversation come up, I was like, well, it should be female athletes, period. it's, you know, we've all heard the stories about the women's soccer team, the women's basketball teams that's been going on. And so if we can't get it,
Shawn (04:17)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (04:28)
write and get these conversations started in the general population. I think it makes it even harder to have them in the blind community.
Christine Holmberg (04:41)
would agree with what both of the ladies are saying. Definitely if if the conversation can be more inclusive. Then there will be a greater respect for the women who maybe be maybe are dealing with vision loss. Once people in the sighted community can see just how strong how successful how talented how accomplished that they are then. their mentality might shift a little bit and they'll be like, well, they're just like us, except they need a little bit of adaptation. And that's how it should be. We need to start ripping off these labels and stop having to label every different group and just try to be one.
Shawn (05:15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (05:28)
Yeah.
Shawn (05:31)
yeah, it's interesting because with the things that I do, sighted people will be like, oh, wow, like you're this incredible blind person doing these hard things. But the reality is there aren't even sighted people. Like if you really look at what I do, there aren't a lot of sighted people that can do what I do. But yet there's still the segregation of me being a woman and blind athlete. And that's what makes me great. But that's not really.
Penn Street (05:40)
Here. Yeah.
Shawn (05:57)
what makes me great is because I'm just doing these really great things and I have these challenges. Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (06:05)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Wardlow (06:07)
What do you think would help to get things more integrated or for the for sighted athletes, know, whatever their sport is to recognize that and welcome? individuals with vision loss or other, you know, hearing loss, other types of disabilities into their circle.
Christine Holmberg (06:36)
I mean, I feel like youth sports, you know, so often that segregation begins in youth sports because of either parents being overprotective or coaches not having the skills to work with kids who might have special needs, whether it's cognitive or whether it's vision, you know, physical, whatever it is. So I feel like it needs to start. I feel like it...
Shawn (06:39)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (07:02)
starting when they're young and making sure that that young kids have access to the same sports that their neighbors that their classmates that their friends are participating in. But maybe even at the at the national level to like maybe the Olympics needs to take more of a role to try to incorporate the Paralympics and the Olympics together instead of splitting. mean I guess it would take forever if they were trying to host everybody at once, but.
Penn Street (07:20)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (07:32)
You know, even from that level, if they're able to integrate a little bit more, then people go, it's okay. Like if the Olympics is doing it, then we can do it in our youth sport team. I don't...
Penn Street (07:42)
Yeah, I that's when this topic came up early, too. I was thinking about that as well, because we just had the Winter Olympics and the Winter Paralympics and because Para exactly right. I mean, we are finally getting some coverage, right? Not a lot, but it's why should we because Para in Paralympics mean part of the standing beside or
Kim Wardlow (07:53)
Which one got the most coverage on TV?
Christine Holmberg (07:57)
I'm going to be honest.
Kim Wardlow (07:59)
Yeah, some.
Christine Holmberg (08:01)
Go.
Penn Street (08:12)
you know, whatever the Webster dictionary is. And why, why are we part of or standing beside or follow wing? Like why? agree with Christine. It's like, why, how did that ever get so incredibly frustrated? And like Mike May is a perfect example. Mike, Mike May, I believe even to this day still holds the downhill ski. racing, the time fastest time, but he will never get credited for that because he, him and his guide illegally got on the Olympic course and did it and they have it. They have the time, but they won't make it a legal time because he was part of the Paralympic team, not the regular Olympic team and it, and it's stuff like that. And I, I don't think it's within the
Kim Wardlow (08:45)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (09:11)
I mean, maybe some of it is within the athletes, but I think it's more in that upper level of coaching and sponsorships and networks that wants us separated.
Kim Wardlow (09:27)
Well Shawn, what are your thoughts because you've competed in the Paralympics of having it combined.
Shawn (09:33)
So I think, I mean, my own personal opinion is they're always going to keep Olympics and Paralympics separate. However, I know that there is some effort to have more TV footage of para athletes, para sports for the Paralympics televised. And they're being talked a little bit more when it comes to like the big sponsors that sponsor the US POC, like Toyota. But again, it's only for the athletes that are multi-medalists at a world championship level, and it's just very few of them. It's not a lot. My opinion within this system of elite sports for para-athletes is, I think that the national governing bodies for each of the sports have more power to have influence because everything trickles down. So if the national governing bodies, so like for example, for tandem bike racers, there are very few actual bike races that have tandem categories where we can go get the experience of time trialing or road racing. There's more now than there used to be, but that was because USA Cycling reached out to some of these race organizers to implement tandem categories or hand cycling. And so I feel like if the national governing bodies of all of these sports that fall within the Paralympics here in this country is that I feel like, and then it encouraged all of these national races. all over the country that happened for all of the able-bodied athletes to get experience or qualification times. If there was more of that, then it would draw more athletes in at those lower levels to be competitive. But the other problem from my experience as a blind athlete is they don't like us. They don't like us because we're that one category that requires two people, which means we are double the cost.
Christine Holmberg (11:41)
Thank
Shawn (11:53)
Our equipment is more expensive. We're double the cost for travel. We're double the cost for everything. And they're really hesitant because everything is money based. Right. They're given a they're given a budget for the year. And that's not what they want to spend their money on. So because of that, there is no you can ask anyone in the in the tandem who's trying to race nationally for tandems, whether you're women or men, there is no support.
Penn Street (11:57)
Mm.
Kim Wardlow (12:02)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (12:21)
Mm.
Shawn (12:23)
There's no developmental camps. There's no anything to help bring young people or older people into this sport. And then saying, here's a platform, here's an opportunity. We know, we, you know, here are some guides that we know that love to race on the front of tandems that have worked with blind people before. Like there's nothing organized. I've actually thought about using my own nonprofit to try to establish something for the blind community. to help with this space that obviously lacks when it comes to just cycling in general. But I just feel like the national governing bodies could do a better job with having developmental programs to bring in new athletes. there are adaptive sports communities all over the country. And I feel like I feel like if they were just better known in the communities, so if someone has an idea of like, I wanna get on a tandem bike and then start there, that then it's not so hard to figure out, well, I'm really good at this and I really wanna train to do this. Right now, I'm putting my name out there. I'm like, I'm telling everyone, just have them call me and I'll help them figure out what the next step is or kind of what this could look like.
Penn Street (13:36)
Right.
Shawn (13:51)
I don't know. I I think it starts with the national governing bodies, in my opinion, for that.
Penn Street (13:57)
Yeah, but even on a local level, I don't know if you start from the top and go down or start at the bottom to go up, but I was asked to do a relay triathlon here in Colorado. It was years ago, but I doubt if anything's changed since then. And so this team, we had... the there was an able bodied, you she didn't have a disability. She was going to do the running portion. And then we actually had somebody with low vision that was going to do the swimming portion. But and she had enough vision that she didn't need a guide or assistance or anything. She felt like she could do it on her own. Well, then I and I was cycling a lot at the time. And I said, well, I'll do the cycle, you know, leg of it. And they're like, great. And I said, but I have to do it on a tandem. And they're like, no problem, or at least my team did. Right. And so we've registered and everything and it was literally a week or less out from the event. got the call that said, you know, we, we hear you're going to do the bicycle portion on a tandem. Well, that's not really fair to the other racers. So we do have, cause I was all women, you know, three women on the team. So they have
Kim Wardlow (14:54)
Mm-hmm. you
Penn Street (15:19)
We have, you we're going to have winner, like the male, the top male team, we're going to have the top female team. Well, we're going to have the top disabled team, but just so you know, you guys are the only disabled team. And of course, all of us fought against it. Like, why, why do we have a leg up because we have a tandem bike? It's actually twice the work. If you've ever ridden a tandem bike, it's, well, we lost, we didn't, and we actually,
Kim Wardlow (15:19)
you
Shawn (15:37)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (15:38)
I think you're reasonable.
Kim Wardlow (15:41)
And it's, they're heavy.
Christine Holmberg (15:46)
Thank
Penn Street (15:48)
pulled out of the race because we didn't want to register as a disabled team because we were the only disabled team. Of course we would have won, right? mean, but it was, and that was a local Colorado race that has been going on for decades and decades. But even on that small level, they were discriminatory. And I used to, I used to run a lot. ran, I've run a lot of races, a lot of marathons, and I was actually running a race in Michigan. And I was actually, it was a short, was only like at like a 10 K in Michigan in a small town. The money was to went towards some nonprofit and I was running with my guide dog. I had multiple people along the road that were racers that said, she's cheating.
Shawn (16:16)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (16:35)
It's running with. working. We did.
Penn Street (16:43)
because I was running with a guide dog. again, I'm like, okay, can I blindfold you?
Kim Wardlow (16:44)
Bye.
Shawn (16:45)
Ha! Ha! My god.
Kim Wardlow (16:51)
I know that makes no sense. Well, it's not like you're, you weren't riding the guide dog. I mean, like you're running, you're still running.
Penn Street (16:55)
No Yeah,
Christine Holmberg (16:56)
Thank you.
Penn Street (16:59)
so it's when I said that earlier about it's not always the athletes well, maybe there is a little discrimination going on within the athletes, but I think it's lack of Understanding its lack of knowledge. So it's it's not just women getting discriminated against in sports or even just recreational sports it's It's you know, we're a woman
Shawn (17:18)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (17:24)
where we have a disability, it's like, you know, we have two strikes and then God forbid you need an adaptive equipment, but it gives you another strike. just, it's insane.
Shawn (17:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, it's awful.
Kim Wardlow (17:37)
Yeah, it's odd to me of advantage because you have a guide or you have a guide dog or you have an adaptive piece of equipment. But that's just to enable you to do what you're doing. It's not, it's not giving you some kind of superpower. don't know.
Christine Holmberg (17:59)
that's where I think to Shawn's point, starting at the national governing levels as well as starting at the youth and starting from the top and the bottom. And then if it can meet in the middle somewhere, then maybe there could be some change. But definitely, you know, to Penn's point, like it's just education. It's just knowledge, awareness. It's
Shawn (18:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (18:25)
The more people in the sighted community can witness blind and low vision athletes in action, I think the more understanding that they'll have, at least I hope, the more understanding that they will have in, okay, they are just needing, like you're saying, Kim, they just need that device or that guide so they can do what they need to do. It's not that it's giving them an advantage, it's just giving them the opportunity to compete at the same level. and they should be given the opportunity to compete at the same level. if we can start them when they're young, start from the top to set the example because having that governing body setting the example. then people take notice and they're more willing to accept. And I think that they could hold the para and the regular Olympics at the same time. Why can't you have a cross-country race with the able-bodied athletes and then the next race is the para athletes? Like, they're on the same course. I watched. I was watching the para Olympics.
Kim Wardlow (19:12)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Penn Street (19:15)
Yeah.
Shawn (19:22)
Yeah.
Penn Street (19:26)
Yeah.
Shawn (19:27)
Yeah, they'll never do that. You know what's interesting? I wish that they, it wasn't until I was in that community, I did not realize a lot of the rules that are being made are international. They're not even for Olympics and Paralympics are not even being made within the United States. This is like an international panel and they're old school. You know, because it kind of goes back to like this conversation, like a little bit off on a tangent is if you look at the pair at para sports, the only disability that they can actually put at the same playing level are the B1 athletes, which are the most blind athletes and where they either have a little bit of light. They can tell a little bit of light or they're total blind. They make them wear blackout goggles. for all of their sports because that's the only disability and all of the disabilities for Paralympics that they can put on the same level, which I think is awful. I have always thought that that is awful. We have the least amount of vision. We can't see anything, but yet they want to put us in the blackout goggles to say, well, you're the only field that we can actually put on the same playing level as just the B1s out of every disability that's out there.
Penn Street (20:37)
Yeah, I agree.
Shawn (20:54)
But those rules are made internationally and in order to participate, have to follow those. And when you go to the Paralympics, as a blind athlete, your pilot or guide, whatever, running guide or whatever the sport is, you are not considered, the guide or the pilot, they're not considered athletes. They're considered equipment.
Penn Street (21:19)
I know that's wrong. Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (21:20)
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (21:22)
So they don't even get an athlete badge to get in. Like they're doing this thing with you. They're your teammate, right? But they're not even considered an athlete at that international level. And in some national governing bodies, whether they'd love for me to say this out loud or not, that's how they treat pilots. And the people that help the blind athletes is their equipment. And it's just awful. I have always hated that.
Penn Street (21:28)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (21:28)
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (21:52)
that stereotype that they have within that community when it comes to the blind athletes.
Penn Street (21:57)
Yeah, and I know from my experience interviewing Paralympians that their guide, their pilot, whatever they're called, a lot of them are actually Olympians themselves. They're at that super high level of competitiveness. But yeah, you're right. A lot of times their names aren't even, they're not even a name. They're just...
Shawn (22:02)
Mm-hmm. correct. Yeah? Yes! What? Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (22:26)
All
Shawn (22:26)
Well, it's interesting because the IPC or the UCI for cycling, this international governing body, they put these rules out there that your pilot or guide has to be like a cat one. Or, you know, or they have to be like this certain level of elite athlete in order to be your guide, but then they won't even recognize them as an athlete. It's really, really bizarre. I know.
Penn Street (22:46)
Mm-hmm. Right. You
Kim Wardlow (22:53)
Well, I know when I interviewed Lex Gillette for this sports series and he was talking about that. And interestingly enough, like you said, they're regarded as equipment, but he said when he's looking for someone to be his guide, somebody who's going to be running if he's racing alongside him, he said, I actually want somebody who's faster than me. And so it's like, it's not, it's just,
Penn Street (22:56)
Yes.
Shawn (23:14)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (23:19)
Right.
Shawn (23:20)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (23:21)
huh.
Kim Wardlow (23:23)
that they are running, but you might actually want somebody who is faster than you. so, but, and, but yet, and I think he said that they've just recently, allowed, like the guys to get medals and, a few sports, but mostly not.
Penn Street (23:28)
You do, yes.
Shawn (23:29)
Mm-hmm, yes. Some do, yeah. mean, in cycling they do. The pilots get medals. the problem with, because of the stereotype of how they've treated our guides or the people that help us, when you go, it's not easy finding someone, especially at these higher levels of competition, to work with us just kind of historically because of how they're treated, which does not help us at all.
Kim Wardlow (24:04)
Mm-hmm. Well, I wonder if we can shift gears. I've really enjoyed this conversation and part of me just wants to keep going, but to shift gears a little bit and say, so at the opposite end, I mean, there are the issues at the high end of the spectrum of people that are competing at Olympic, Paralympic level. But what about, you know, the folks that are just starting or maybe
Penn Street (24:14)
I'm
Kim Wardlow (24:37)
you know, the kids that are starting out, know, where that first point is going to be where they get their first opening into sports or recreation and being given the opportunity to try that and being able to change things at that, you know, at that early stage.
Penn Street (24:56)
Well, and I think that's why. And that's why I think places like Foresight are so critically important. I never, ever, ever would have gotten into skiing if it wasn't for an adaptive ski program. But I didn't even know it existed until I was in college. Like I would have skied much younger and maybe they didn't have kids adaptive sports back then, because it was way back in the old days. But when I was in college, And it was literally through one of my, you know, another student who was blind that said, are you skiing this winter? And I was like, no, cause I don't know how, like how does that happen? and it was him who got me into the program and they made it, they made it completely accessible. Like we just had to get to this bus stop. and it was, it was by Denny's. And so we, we would all, all of us blind people would meet and have breakfast at Denny's. And then we'd get on the bus and they would take us up and we had these amazing guides and this amazing adaptive program. And I, I succeeded in skiing super fast. was one of the few things in my life, except for playing guitar that I, did it once and I was like, this makes sense to me. I understand this. And, and I did get, I, I exceeded and excelled in it really quickly. And I did have some of the guides like,
Christine Holmberg (26:22)
you
Penn Street (26:25)
you should train to be a Paralympian. And I didn't even know what that was, right? Like I, I didn't know what that was. There were no mentors. There was, I didn't meet any other athletes, athletes that were part of that. so that's why, like I would have skied as a kid. If, if I, if I had the opportunity, I was really hungry for that. But like with the program that like Christine is in charge of. That's why it's so critical, is so that those kids can get in early.
Christine Holmberg (27:00)
Yeah, I have to say Penn is an awesome skier. First of all, starting late in life and you are a fabulous, beautiful skier. But and and I also have to say that we are really blessed here in Colorado because there are so many adaptive ski programs in this state to help people from young ages all the way up to adults to help them get out there and learn to ski.
Kim Wardlow (27:03)
Yes.
Shawn (27:04)
Hahaha!
Penn Street (27:08)
thank you.
Christine Holmberg (27:28)
and participate in other adaptive sports. So we are really lucky here and I know that there are a lot more adaptive organizations popping up around the country, which is fantastic, but for foresight. One of the greatest things about what we do is we are teaching young kids how to ski. We are providing the access. And I think that's part of it, is the access. And because our program is, I mean, for all intents and purposes, there's no fee attached. I mean, we do charge a nominal fee now for the adults, but for the kids, we still offer our two-day learn to ski program for free. And... I don't understand why the TV eyes don't take advantage of it why the parents are in advantage of it why they aren't forcing their kids like. Go and try it and if they don't like it great, know a few years ago we had a girl who just it was was not resonating with her like unlike you can that was like my gosh it makes perfect sense and I just went with it this for this young lady it just did not resonate in.
Penn Street (28:12)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (28:16)
to try it.
Penn Street (28:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (28:34)
We tried skiing we tried snow snowboarding and nothing works so we eventually just got some snow shoes and took her out snow shoeing and she was happy as a clam. had at least tried she never would have known. And then we've got kids that are like rippers like I had a I have we have a little boy that started with us when he was like 8. And he's like 12 now in last year. He was like Christine I want to learn how to ski slalom and he does not vision in one eye like he only has vision in.
Penn Street (28:45)
Right?
Shawn (29:02)
Wow.
Christine Holmberg (29:04)
he was like I want to learn slalom and I was like well, OK if that's what you want to do to come up with your school will try to get you an instructor who might be able to help you learn slalom and unfortunately that didn't like maybe he forgot I don't know I mean that didn't come up when he was here this year, but we do have kids that are so incredible we have a little boy that snowboarded the last 3 years this year decided to ski on day 2.
Kim Wardlow (29:07)
Ha ha ha.
Christine Holmberg (29:30)
he's skiing all over the mountain, he's basically parallel he's like again like 1112 years old. He was in the terrain Park like skiing over the boxes and the rails and I mean he is incredible and you look at him and you're like that could should be training for parallel being because he just it clicked for him and it clicked for the other boy too and we've got some girls same thing like they are so we've had a couple girls that it just clicks for but if they don't have the access.
Penn Street (29:31)
Wow. Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (29:59)
to it and they're not trying, then how are they gonna know if they like it or if they don't like it? And you know, the teachers can only do so much. You you've gotta get the parents to also just like sighted parents do. Like I forced my kids to do everything. I'm like, you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that, because you just need to learn. So you've gotta try and then you never know where it could take you.
Penn Street (30:00)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (30:24)
So it sounds like barriers to access is big. there other? barriers that you see or do you think female blind athletes have different barriers or additional barriers to male athletes?
Penn Street (30:46)
Well, I think part of it is that kids, least this, saw this when I was young and I definitely am still seeing it now, is that they don't have mentors. Maybe not mentors isn't the right word, but they don't have heroes in it, right? One of my heroes for over a decade now has been Eric Wymer. I had given up. hiking and climbing until I met Eric. I was an adult when I met him, but I had given up that part of my life because I didn't think I would be able to continue to teach rock climbing with my, you know, I had a significant vision loss overnight and I, until I met Eric. But if you ask a lot of kids, they don't know who Eric Weimer is. You know, they, don't know who Shawn Sheshire is, right? We need, we need people like Shawn.
Christine Holmberg (31:43)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (31:51)
in the media so that a little blind girl who, who wants to, you know, be in the Paralympics and ride a bike or she wants to run the Grand Canyon, you know, she wants to do these things. She, she has somebody to look up to and like, well, Shawn did that. Maybe I can do that, you know, and we need, we need more of that. And I think that's why these podcasts like this and on the blind chick are important and in what
Christine Holmberg (32:11)
Thank I mean.
Penn Street (32:20)
you know, Christine does. And I think Christine, you do bring up occasionally like mentors for the kids to meet. and I know they do it at the, like the Colorado school for the deaf and blind in Colorado Springs, but we need to do more of that. And because sighted kids, you know, they, they see, you know, Lindsey Vaughn and they all these, but I don't know how much they.
Christine Holmberg (32:40)
you know.
Kim Wardlow (32:43)
Right, right.
Christine Holmberg (32:45)
Mm.
Penn Street (32:46)
Like when I was a blind little kid, I wouldn't have looked at, I would be like, my gosh, that's really awesome that she's doing that. But I would not have related that to, that's something I could do. Now, if Lindsey Vonn had been blind, I would have been like, my gosh, blind people can ski, you know, like, and maybe that would have led to, you know, me having more of a professional sports career than I did.
Shawn (33:15)
Yeah. Well, you know, I thought of, God, I'm sorry, Kim.
Kim Wardlow (33:15)
Well, I was just going to say, well, you know, and even to have that level of media attention, I would think then as Cite a Child might also be like, oh, wow, Shawn, Shawn's, you know, going across the Arctic. I want to do the header, you know, whatever sport it is. I think I think you're right. It's like, well, we know, you know, hockey players, all that.
Penn Street (33:29)
Yeah.
Shawn (33:32)
Yeah, but I don't want the media attention. Yeah. What about this perspective? What about what? So I'm not really like that. I don't really have a desire to get my message out there from a media perspective. Like, it's not why I do what I do. So which was one of the reasons why Choosing to See was co founded was because then we can go to these schools for the blind and visually impaired or and deaf children and then meet them, tell the story in person. and I can meet these kids and meet the parents, which has kind of slowly been this process for me of, like I live in Flagstaff, Arizona, and I know that there's school down in Phoenix, and then there's Northern Arizona Adaptive Sports Program here, and then that's a way for me, even in Flagstaff, when they come up, they're learning about adaptive sports down in their school because of this program up here, and they come up and do the skiing and the hiking, and then the local programs are are learning who I am and then I'm coming out to their programs and meeting the kids and talking about the things that I do. Because I feel like that is more impactful than media. Just because I'm blind, I don't spend a lot of time watching TV and social media really is not easy for me. And I feel like it's so much more powerful like in person, this in person perspective of meeting other people who have. you know, the same or different challenges and they're doing stuff. Because one of the things I was thinking about when you guys were talking was Move United. It used to be Disabled Sports USA. The largest, it is like the largest adaptive sports program in the country. where all of these, there's so many little smaller programs like Northern Arizona Adaptive Sports Program is under the umbrella of Move United.
Penn Street (35:18)
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (35:36)
And I feel like in the 15 years that I've been blind, the message is big, like it's out there more than it was 15 years ago. So I feel like that there's progress in that. And then I feel like my experience with some of these organizations, Christine, probably like yours is that when it comes to the communities and the media areas, there is that awareness because we're doing the fundraising and we're doing the social media and we're
Christine Holmberg (35:46)
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (36:06)
putting the word out there so the local families and schools, like they're learning about it. So it's kind of like word of mouth there. So it's kind of like just bridging the gap between the areas that don't have that. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe someone else who's blind can tell me that I'm wrong. I just don't know how you become, how you get that powerful of a message out with media.
Christine Holmberg (36:22)
you
Shawn (36:36)
from a blind perspective. It's one thing to sit and watch sports. me, since I was sighted for so many years of my life, it's like you watch sports and you learn who players are and who the greats are. And especially if people are talking about them all the time, you learn the names. But it's so different with para sports, because there's less people talking about them. and you're not really like watching them all the time. So I don't know how to bridge that. I wouldn't know how to bridge that gap of what it's like for everybody in the sighted world to learn who the greats are versus the para side of things, much less the blind visually impaired, because I just feel like how we do things is just so different. It's less, it's not visual. I don't know if this makes sense what I'm saying.
Penn Street (37:35)
It does. And I agree with some of what you're saying because like if I had never been able to eat to meet Eric Guayamere in person, it probably definitely was, would not be as powerful as, mean, cause I knew the story. He was all over the media when he was doing Everest, right? Like he was all over the media and, I, and I understood what he was doing, but honestly, I didn't really believe it until I met him.
Christine Holmberg (37:36)
Bye bye. We don't know.
Shawn (37:57)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Kim Wardlow (38:04)
Yeah.
Penn Street (38:05)
Right. But but so many people are on social media, regardless if they're sighted or not. You know, there's actually some pretty impressive people on social media that I feel that are changing the narrative for people who are blind and low vision. You know, they're writers, they're artists, they're musicians. There's all this, you know,
Christine Holmberg (38:09)
So many.
Shawn (38:25)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (38:34)
Skateboarding, yes, surfing. yes, exactly. So I do think that there is a place that that is important as well. And I do know that you don't do it for the recognition. But if a kid out there has that drive and all they need is a spark, right?
Shawn (38:34)
Skateboarding.
Christine Holmberg (38:38)
dance.
Kim Wardlow (38:38)
Yeah.
Shawn (38:38)
Makeup, makeup artists. I even know about a makeup artist. Yeah. Right.
Christine Holmberg (38:43)
wow.
Shawn (38:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
Penn Street (39:04)
somebody, a blind person actually did this? Like that, that means that maybe I can. I think that that is just, it's worth everything. So, but yeah, I do believe that in person is freaking awesome. Like there is nothing better than that in person, but there's only one of you.
Shawn (39:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (39:13)
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (39:13)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Christine Holmberg (39:21)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (39:23)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Shawn (39:28)
I'm aware.
Kim Wardlow (39:31)
Ha
Shawn (39:33)
I mean I have social media and I make sure all the message like it's what I'm doing is out there. I don't it's not my favorite and it's harder for me but it's...
Christine Holmberg (39:34)
Yeah.
Penn Street (39:40)
Yeah. Yes.
Shawn (39:47)
You know, I only found out about para sports when I lost my vision through team Red, White and Blue. And then the recreational department at the VA hospital. Becoming a part of team, like I didn't, I actually really didn't understand what the Paralympics were when I was a sighted person. And it just, and it took sighted people telling me about the Paralympics.
Penn Street (39:53)
Right.
Shawn (40:16)
to start learning about what that was and if that was something that I wanted to do. But I actually didn't take that challenge to be that because that's what I wanted to be. I actually did that because I was struggling so hard with feeling so lost going from sighted to blind that a boy made the statement that I'd never be good enough and that was it. That's all I needed to hear.
Penn Street (40:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (40:40)
you
Shawn (40:43)
Yeah, that's literally how all of it started. And then for me, retiring from Team USA and then doing what I do now, it is all about defining our own limitations and not having a sighted world have these stigmas of what blind people can and can't do. I would love before I die to crush every single one of those. Like you don't actually get to tell me what we can and can't do. We get to figure that out for ourselves.
Penn Street (40:45)
well. Yes. Yeah. So Christine, I'm curious with like with your program with the kids, like you said, there was a couple of kids that seem to stand out, you know, like these kids get this. Is there a way to connect like Shawn was talking about? There was this connection. With with the the red, white and blue project, right? Or there, you know, there's there are some doors that opened that you could choose to go in.
Christine Holmberg (41:12)
Yeah. standard
Penn Street (41:38)
Well, with the with the foresight guides skiing program, do you have an opportunity if you see a kiddo that, you know, shines or like you said, get is getting it? Do you is there a way to connect them with? A program that they can, you know, move on to that next level.
Christine Holmberg (42:03)
Yeah, I mean, would collect, I would connect them to resources. But you know, the child has to express interest and the parents have to be all in because it is a difficult journey and it is a very expensive journey, you know, as a... Yeah. I'm a little too closely connected to that, but...
Penn Street (42:05)
Okay. Yeah. Right.
Kim Wardlow (42:14)
Yeah.
Penn Street (42:19)
which you know because you have a son who's so professional. Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (42:26)
haha
Christine Holmberg (42:30)
And I would imagine, you know, if you're blind or have low vision, I mean, the journey is going to be just as expensive and just as challenging as it is for a sighted person. Only at least sighted people have maybe one more resource than non-sighted. There are actually, there's a girl who is from Vale who competed with her brother in Cortina. And I talked with her mother before and I'm like, we're here if you need us. Like, if you want training for you or your son.
Penn Street (42:48)
Wow. Wow.
Shawn (42:48)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (42:53)
Yeah.
Shawn (42:54)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (42:58)
who guides like we can be a resource for you. But I had an adult who has been skiing with us since he was about 12 or 13 and he was out this past winter. He was here at the beginning of February and had gotten some health stuff under control, had been working out and eating well and was super fit. And after his trip, he emailed me, he's like, Christine, I wanna get into the Paralympics. What do I do? And I was like, oh my God, that's amazing. And so I...
Penn Street (43:22)
Nice.
Shawn (43:25)
I love that.
Christine Holmberg (43:26)
actually connected him to move United because I know they do race camps at ski spec in Breckenridge in December and I was like that's where I would start you know I would start there there and he's a great skier so I'm like I would start there I would go to the race camp in December. think one of the hardest things for skiers for blind and low vision skiers is getting that guide because.
Penn Street (43:28)
awesome.
Shawn (43:29)
Yep. Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (43:50)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (43:52)
We had somebody a few years ago, same thing. He had aspiration. He used to be a runner and a marathoner and lost his sight. And so he was like, well, now I want to do Paralympics. And I was like, great. And he attended the race camp. His skiing skills were not really that strong. He was hoping to go to Cortina in 26. And his skiing skills weren't that strong. But the one thing that he did not have was the guide. And so that's where I think as a blind athlete,
Penn Street (44:02)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (44:17)
Hmm.
Shawn (44:17)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (44:22)
it's almost double the challenge because you need that other person with you whether it's cycling or biking or. Cycling or running or skiing you know you do need I mean cross country don't they have guides also I'm trying to remember if I saw any of line. During the Olympics. So yes, I mean I can certainly.
Penn Street (44:23)
Yeah. Absolutely.
Shawn (44:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (44:39)
Yes. Yeah.
Shawn (44:41)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yep.
Christine Holmberg (44:49)
help direct them and the first place I would go would be move United that would be the first place I would go but then I was also like contact parallel, you know contact para the U.S. Paralympic team and see I'm like you might want to wait a few weeks because they're all in Italy right now hold.
Shawn (44:54)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (44:58)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (45:03)
They're gone.
Penn Street (45:04)
Right, right.
Shawn (45:05)
Yeah. But that's the problem is they just don't do, they just have no, it was New Zealand, I believe, and even in the UK, their pilots have to live within 20 miles of their stoker or whoever they're guiding. And they get government supplementation for living, right, and payment to guide as well. So they're part of the program as an athlete. We don't do this in this country.
Penn Street (45:22)
really? wow.
Shawn (45:37)
So finding guides and pilots is always on the blind athlete and there's no resource, there's no pool. Nobody here in this country is creating a pool of athletes that are either coming in or going out of their sport that want to give back and do something with someone who's blind or visually impaired, which is heartbreaking, but that is literally a huge problem here. We talk about it all the time in the cycling community.
Penn Street (45:42)
Yeah. Yeah, when I was really involved with the blind running community in Colorado, the last guide, I mean, and a lot of things were going on at that moment, but it was my, think it was just, I think it was a half marathon. I was running in Estes Park, which is the highest paved marathon in the United States. But my guide the night before, um, eight jalapenos. I told him not to. Um, so could imagine the race the next morning and I spent the bulk of the race literally running by myself, just trying to use the little bit of vision I have to follow the yellow line on the road. Um, and I did get some help from a couple of other runners, but he was so sick the entire time. By the time we got it ended inside the high school race track.
Shawn (46:39)
gosh.
Penn Street (47:02)
Well, by the time we got there, he was so dehydrated. was, I he was out of it, wasn't paying attention. And there was a tiny lip. It was only like an inch to get up on the track from the road. Well, he didn't, he didn't tell me about it. And I hit it wrong and went down and, and we were tethered together. but he didn't go down, but almost. I, I, and everybody knows.
Shawn (47:18)
now
Kim Wardlow (47:23)
Yeah.
Penn Street (47:29)
coming out and I was like, leave me alone. I mean, I was so pissed. And I said, we're gonna finish. And I was literally dragging, literally dragging him behind me. And we got across the finish line, he collapses and I ripped the tether off and I just walked away bawling. Not because I was hurt. I blew my ankle out. It wasn't the same after, but I was so angry at him.
Shawn (47:34)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Christine Holmberg (47:40)
We have to do it.
Penn Street (47:58)
and the our head coach came over and she goes, you need another guide. And I was like, no shit, Sherlock. but, but yeah. And I've never actually spoken to this person since then. but, but it's, they are more than just a guide, right? They're more than just a tool. Like, like if your GPS or your, battery runs out, you can grab some more batteries, right? Or
Shawn (47:59)
Mmm.
Kim Wardlow (48:06)
hahahaha
Shawn (48:15)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (48:20)
Right.
Penn Street (48:28)
You can reconnect to a new network. Like there's all these tools that we use every day that are easily replaced. You cannot replace a you know, part way through a race or, you know, and it's like they're, they're people there. Yes. And I understand people get sick, but when you eat jalapenos and I like you, you're, you're guaranteed. Yeah.
Shawn (48:38)
you Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (48:43)
Yes, I understand.
Kim Wardlow (48:50)
before a race.
Shawn (48:51)
Well, but that's a different conversation. I feel like that's just a different conversation because you can say that they're human and we all know that that's fact. Like it doesn't need to be stated. It's like team and trust, right? It's the conversation of trust within the blind community of like, you, know, and I really think that not a lot of people think about this even on a sighted perspective of like, what does it take to trust a guide?
Penn Street (49:01)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (49:05)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (49:19)
Yeah.
Shawn (49:20)
or a pilot or whoever's guiding you, right? My experience, especially early on, was the experience is I need to just feel grateful every day because someone's willing to help me, period. Not, is this person, as a blind person, trust is a process, it's not an all or nothing, right? So it's like, I'm gonna give this person I don't know a little bit of trust because they wanna do something with me and I hope in the process that they're willing to earn
Penn Street (49:31)
Yeah. Yes.
Shawn (49:49)
more of my trust as we go through this together as a team and you're here for me, I'm here for you. And then it just becomes this relationship building, team building process together, right? Where you're thinking about each other. like making a flippant decision on diet, like before a race, that's not thinking about you, you know, and the effect that it would have on you, right? But that's.
Penn Street (49:52)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (50:00)
Thank
Penn Street (50:02)
Right? Yeah. Right. And he knew it was a, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like it was a, it was a qualifying
Christine Holmberg (50:17)
and
Penn Street (50:18)
race for the New York marathon. And so, you know what I mean? Like, but, I'm sure I'm not the only, I'm guaranteed not the only person that has, has dealt with this, but,
Shawn (50:20)
Yeah, I'm so sorry.
Shawn (50:32)
Hey, I've raced for Team USA and had a pilot on the front of the bike decide they just didn't want to race that day and ride right off the race course after months of preparation. And I was ready and I have no control over that once their race is done, my race is done. So, yes. So like I hear you what you're saying. And it is such a real topic within the blind community. The higher like it doesn't even really matter if it's recreation or competition.
Kim Wardlow (50:40)
my gosh.
Christine Holmberg (50:42)
Well...
Penn Street (51:01)
Yo.
Kim Wardlow (51:01)
I was gonna say you'd face the same.
Shawn (51:02)
Like when we show up to do the thing, like we're in it, we wanna have that experience. So like if our person lets us down for whatever reason, we don't get that experience regardless of what it is. Yeah, and it's an awful feeling because there's this unspoken expectation where I was supposed to just, I just had to be grateful. It didn't matter whether it was.
Penn Street (51:16)
Right. Yeah, you're a bigger person than me. was not grateful.
Christine Holmberg (51:29)
Hahaha
Shawn (51:30)
No, mean, I was, listen, this is within five years of losing my vision. I was still learning what it meant for me to be a blind person, how to find my voice. Like, was it okay for me to say something or to feel what I was feeling or was I just supposed to suck it up and be grateful because I was still in another country, you know, representing Team USA, even though I didn't get to write, you know, it's just like, yeah, it's.
Penn Street (51:54)
Right.
Kim Wardlow (51:59)
But somebody could have that experience at a more recreational level or a local level, not international competition. And maybe you could speak to that a little bit for somebody maybe who is more recently blind or more recently has last vision and they're trying to figure out, well, what can I say? Well, this program said they were inclusive, but it doesn't...
Shawn (52:00)
It's Mm-hmm. Yep.
Kim Wardlow (52:29)
really seem like they are. It doesn't really seem as accessible as I thought, you know, and just being able to speak up and that it is okay. And even if you shouldn't have to do that, you may need to do that.
Christine Holmberg (52:31)
over
Shawn (52:42)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's so unfortunate that it's part of this process.
Penn Street (52:52)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (52:54)
We, whenever, in the seven years I've been with Foresight, I don't think, maybe once, I've had a guide that had to bow out, and that was because they got injured in a collision the day before. But if I get guides that are like, my gosh, I now have a conflict, can somebody else step in? I'm like, you better figure it out, because we've got people counting on you.
Penn Street (53:07)
Mm.
Shawn (53:08)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Penn Street (53:20)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (53:20)
especially if they're coming in from out of state. If I've got somebody coming in from out of state, they're paying money to get here. They're paying money to stay in a hotel. Like you can't just decide, oh, you know what? I'm a little sniffly. can't, I can't make it this morning. You better get your ass out of bed and you better get in the veil because you've got somebody that's relying on you. Whether it's a child, whether it's a teenager, whether it's an adult, whether it's an older adult, you know, like we're making that commitment to them.
Penn Street (53:26)
Yeah. I'm
Kim Wardlow (53:36)
Ha
Shawn (53:42)
Hmm.
Penn Street (53:48)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (53:48)
And I would not, I do not let my guides get out of things that easily because of that, because of what you're saying, Shawn, you they are, you're coming out here and you're counting on having this experience. And if we can't provide that, it's because of something silly. I mean, obviously like our guy got injured a couple of weeks ago and you know, knocked out. So yeah, we're gonna take a break and.
Penn Street (53:52)
good. Yeah.
Shawn (53:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
Penn Street (54:11)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (54:12)
There's
Shawn (54:13)
Not good, of course.
Christine Holmberg (54:14)
And I was fine he was like that's OK I've got sciatica you know it all worked out but it's just it's not acceptable and it's just not acceptable I do want to just really quickly on the trust issue. I am floored at how quickly the kids that we bring up here to learn to ski learn to trust their guides it's like. Unequivocal like they just they're just trusting this person that they just met.
Penn Street (54:36)
Yeah.
Shawn (54:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (54:44)
Even the adults, but I see it more with the kids. They just trust them to get them down a hill and they don't even think twice about it. I don't think I can do that. I mean, I am absolutely amazed at how trusting the low vision community is.
Shawn (54:52)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Wardlow (54:53)
Ha ha ha.
Shawn (54:56)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean if you think about it, my experience, because I have spoken to lot of parents of the blind and visually impaired children, they make their fears, the parents instill their fears in these kids, and it's like, don't do that. You want your kid to live a big full life, you let them figure out what it is they do and do not want to do, you don't get to do that for them, because all you're going to do is limit how big their life is.
Penn Street (55:17)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (55:18)
You want your...
Penn Street (55:29)
Yeah.
Shawn (55:29)
So pocket your fears. I said, and just make sure like whoever they're doing the thing with, that these are people that do the thing, they'll be safe. Because they're gonna know how to watch out for your kids' safety. But your kids, you know, right, right.
Christine Holmberg (55:31)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (55:38)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (55:40)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (55:40)
Well, and that it's okay that they fall. That's what I run into working with, especially with
Christine Holmberg (55:41)
here.
Penn Street (55:45)
the kids, is that they have to learn that they're gonna fall because you do not learn how to get back up, you know? And mom and dad are not always gonna be there. And the sooner you learn that, that, okay, I'm gonna fall and I might even get hurt, but I can get back up and the world's...
Shawn (55:47)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Holmberg (55:52)
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (55:52)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Wardlow (55:54)
Yes, you don't fall.
Shawn (55:55)
Right? Yeah.
Penn Street (56:08)
continues to move on and I'm okay. And I think, and you do see that in some of the kids that I've worked with, because it does, keeps going through adulthood, right? How many blind adults have we run into? It's like, I can't do that because I might crash or I might fall. And it's like, and why?
Shawn (56:22)
Hahaha.
Christine Holmberg (56:34)
Yeah.
Shawn (56:34)
was 36 years old when I lost my vision.
Penn Street (56:36)
Yeah.
Shawn (56:37)
I was scared of everything. I hid in my house for six months, all the noises, I was literally scared of everything. But here's the other thing is that we don't talk about in the blind community, in my opinion, is fear. Cited people have this misconception that when we do something, like we're absent of fear. And I'm like, nobody is ever absent of fear.
Penn Street (56:51)
Yeah. No. Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (57:00)
No.
Shawn (57:03)
It is a matter of learning how to just move through it. You can do things and be scared at the same time. that is just that is a fact because that's how I live. But yeah, no, that was a very hard place for me to go from terrified of everything, afraid of moving to who I am today. Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (57:10)
Thank
Kim Wardlow (57:12)
Yeah, that's.
Penn Street (57:21)
Yeah, that's a great point. It's just learning to move again and be part of the world. Because even to this day, if I go to a new yoga class or it doesn't matter what it is, you always have to out the forms and they ask, there any accommodation, whatever. And I always do tell them. And I get there and I just, even now,
Shawn (57:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (57:48)
as old as I am, just automatically expect if I put that I'm blind, low vision, they should know what to do with that. They don't, they don't. And, or even if they say they do, they may not. And there is a fear. Every, every new thing that I go into, even, even speaking to the public, right, about this, it's there, there is that fear of, okay, when am I going to have to?
Shawn (57:59)
I know.
Christine Holmberg (57:59)
I
Penn Street (58:17)
do this time so that I have the best outcome that I can possibly have. And Kim, like you were talking about recreation, even if it's not competitive sports, to me, it's trying to educate whoever that teacher is, whoever that organization is that you're going to be working with. But even with that, sometimes that's not enough. You just, you show up with your fear and you do it anyway.
Christine Holmberg (58:45)
Yeah.
Penn Street (58:46)
because you can still
Kim Wardlow (58:47)
Well, and.
Penn Street (58:47)
have fun even when you're afraid and you may meet your best friend there or make new friends or at least learn how to make a friend while you're there.
Kim Wardlow (58:59)
Well, that's the definition of courage, isn't it? To feel the fear and do it anyway.
Penn Street (59:02)
Yeah, absolutely.
Shawn (59:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (59:06)
I never read that book, but just the title impacted my life hugely.
Kim Wardlow (59:11)
Yeah, I think just having having courage and it may just be like you said, it may just be going to a yoga class or speaking in public or doing something new. doesn't have to be, you know, Mount Everest or going across the Arctic. It might be if you're Shawn, but it might be. But but it doesn't have to be just having, you know, we all have to.
Shawn (59:11)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (59:30)
Yeah.
Shawn (59:32)
you
Penn Street (59:36)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (59:40)
have courage and to do our things. Sometimes.
Penn Street (59:41)
Well, making it to the mailbox sometimes is your Everest, right? It's
Shawn (59:43)
Yeah.
Penn Street (59:45)
just as terrifying, just as scary and yeah.
Christine Holmberg (59:46)
is it?
Shawn (59:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm just really hoping that I leave a legacy of...
Kim Wardlow (59:52)
Yeah.
Shawn (59:56)
of what's more possible in the blind community than what it was before.
Penn Street (1:00:01)
Well, you can already check that box.
Shawn (1:00:04)
I don't know, I'm still working on it.
Penn Street (1:00:06)
Well, I think you can check that box. But you can keep doing what you're doing,
Kim Wardlow (1:00:09)
Yeah.
Shawn (1:00:11)
I will, but it's just, I just, it's just cause I feel like if it affects me.
Christine Holmberg (1:00:12)
you
Shawn (1:00:18)
I just can't, to me when I just think about everybody else that's blind or visually impaired and then how it affects them, just, I just fluctuate between being angry and sad that the sighted world would even do that to us and try to limit us or make us too scared to be different, to do things different, to be great.
Penn Street (1:00:39)
Well that's, yeah, but that's, I try to share that, especially when I'm talking to people with disabilities, is we cannot count on the able-bodied world to change the laws. We can't wait for them and expect them to change processes. We can't wait for them to give us access.
Shawn (1:00:45)
Yeah.
Penn Street (1:01:06)
We have to demand it. We have to expect it and we have to make it happen because we, we cannot sit around and mope and, you know, and feel sorry for ourselves because we don't have it, you know, and we, have to use our voices. We have to use our bodies, whatever it takes to change. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Shawn (1:01:07)
Right. Right. I was gonna say I'm trying to use my actions to do a couple of fuck yous to people out there. So yeah, exactly.
Penn Street (1:01:36)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (1:01:38)
Well, that's what's so great about when we're out skiing because we wear bright orange vests and everyone is seeing us out there on the mountain. mean, people will, they stop our guides, they talk to them in the lines, they'll tell our VIPs like, my God, I can't believe you're doing this. Like I am so impressed by you. And you know, that's the little piece of the puzzle, you know, whether it's social media, whether it's mainstream media, whether it's just being out there and being seen.
Shawn (1:01:42)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (1:01:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Shawn (1:01:44)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Wardlow (1:01:45)
Yeah.
Shawn (1:01:54)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (1:02:01)
Yeah.
Shawn (1:02:02)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (1:02:07)
Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (1:02:08)
you know, it all it all helps at all chips at least I hope that it all chips away a little bit at preconceived notions that we have about what people can and can't do. And because we are so visible out there on the mountain. It really does make people pause and think how wow they can do that like I can't even do that I can't see that black diamond but that blind person is that's incredible. So.
Shawn (1:02:14)
Mm-hmm.
Penn Street (1:02:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Shawn (1:02:36)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Wardlow (1:02:37)
We've seen that on our hikes too, where, you know, we have a whole group of people with canes and dogs and other people with them. And all of a sudden other people on the trail are like, wow, wait, wait, are you blind? it's like, yes, they're, yeah, yeah. Just being out in the public like that.
Christine Holmberg (1:02:37)
You know, it just,
Penn Street (1:02:38)
Yes. And they're passing me, right? Yeah.
Shawn (1:02:58)
Yeah.
Penn Street (1:03:01)
Yeah, I know Sedona Dave, which I know, Shawn, you know who he is. give him a hug for me next time you see him. But Dave has this besides, you know, inventing this these amazing white canes. But he he has a whole T-shirt design, you know.
Shawn (1:03:06)
I just had lunch with him and his wife the other day. Yeah, I will, I will.
Christine Holmberg (1:03:12)
Thank you.
Penn Street (1:03:21)
catalog of, and the shirts are really, really cold. The t-shirts are really cool, but they say blind on them, you know, and Dave, he's like, I want everybody to know I'm blind. You know, it's like, and it's, I think it is being proud of who you are and all of who you are. You know, I think, I mean, I was definitely, especially as a young person, I was embarrassed that I couldn't see. didn't want to use my cane. but
Shawn (1:03:32)
Yeah. Hmm.
Penn Street (1:03:50)
But now it's like, you know, I'm proud of it because it helps me get from point A to point B and it's, you know, it's part of who I am, you know.
Shawn (1:04:03)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I love that, yeah.
Christine Holmberg (1:04:05)
part of your superpower.
Penn Street (1:04:06)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (1:04:07)
Well done, you know.
Christine Holmberg (1:04:10)
Shawn, I want to get you out here to talk to our kids, whether it's do you ski?
Penn Street (1:04:12)
Yes.
Shawn (1:04:14)
I do, I love to ski. Yeah.
Christine Holmberg (1:04:16)
Okay, so whether we get you out here to talk with one of our school groups next winter or have you come out to our summer camp and talk to the kids at summer camp. Or both, yeah, or both. Yeah, that's true. Why not both?
Shawn (1:04:28)
Or both? Yeah, I would
Kim Wardlow (1:04:28)
Yeah, because you climb and you do summer activities too.
Shawn (1:04:34)
love that. Yeah, yeah.
Penn Street (1:04:34)
Yes.
Christine Holmberg (1:04:36)
Okay, yeah, because I think certainly when they see themselves as we've talked about when they have role models, when they've got mentors, when they've got somebody to look in the mirror and go, they're just like me. It can have impact. Whether it's through athletics, whether it's through education, whether it's through employment, whatever that looks like, anytime you can empower kids to embrace themselves for who they are.
Shawn (1:04:53)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Christine Holmberg (1:05:06)
and not let the world tell what they can and can't do, that's pretty powerful. And just let them know they can go out and conquer anything out there they want. They might have a few more doors to open or so forth, but they can still do it. So I'd love to have you out here for Colorado.
Shawn (1:05:13)
Yeah.
Penn Street (1:05:21)
Yeah.
Shawn (1:05:22)
Yeah. And I would love that because that's our future. I'm just like all about that. Yeah.
Penn Street (1:05:25)
Yes.
Christine Holmberg (1:05:30)
and watching our kids rock climb, you'd be pretty impressed.
Penn Street (1:05:31)
you
Kim Wardlow (1:05:32)
Ha
Shawn (1:05:33)
I'm sure.
Kim Wardlow (1:05:36)
Well, I want to give you a few minutes to talk about things that are coming up because I know everybody has events, hikes, programs, summer programs. Christine, do you want to start? You mentioned your summer programs. know we have some things we're doing jointly with you as well.
Christine Holmberg (1:05:36)
So. Yeah, so Foresight hosts two summer camps for blind youth. One is June, the first one is June 22nd to the 24th. And the second, yeah, first one is 22nd to 24th of June. The second one is July 13th to the 15th. And they are three fun-filled adventure days in and around the Vale Valley. We take them rock climbing, we take them rafting, we take them stand-up paddle boarding on the lake. We did a dinosaur dig last year. I might incorporate some arts and crafts this year. just met a woman in a meeting right before here and I was like, I want to get you involved. And she's like, we can do rain sticks and necklaces and really cool tactile things that the kids can take home. So I'm really excited for that. So that's happening this summer. And then Penn Aftersight and Forsight have partnered on a fundraiser walk on May 30th at Cherry Creek State Park.
Penn Street (1:06:39)
No.
Christine Holmberg (1:06:58)
And so we're really excited to partner with them on that. And everyone's welcome. Site optional.
Penn Street (1:07:04)
Yep. I like that.
Shawn (1:07:06)
I love that. That's
Kim Wardlow (1:07:06)
Ha Ha ha.
Christine Holmberg (1:07:10)
There you go.
Shawn (1:07:11)
so good. Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (1:07:13)
Benji, want to piggyback on that? things we're doing together?
Penn Street (1:07:15)
Sure. Yeah. So like Christine said, so, May 30th, it's going to be at Cherry Creek reservoir, which is East, East Denver. It's an Aurora. It's a beautiful park. And actually any person with a disability could, could partake. The trail is fairly flat and not just Penn flat. I know I have a reputation for saying the hike's easy and some of you don't agree. but it actually is.
Christine Holmberg (1:07:25)
This is under... Uh-uh.
Kim Wardlow (1:07:39)
That's it.
Penn Street (1:07:43)
And so that's really exciting. And we'll have that link in the show notes to the podcast. And then September 12th is our big annual hike. And we're collaborating with No Barriers USA. And also Foresight is going to have a team there. And that's going to be September 12th at Winter Park. Shawn, we'd love to have you there if you're available. Yeah, Eric Weimer will be there. And it's just, it's a fun, just a lot of really cool, awesome people. It's a great, it's a great day to meet a lot of really awesome people. So yeah, we're really, really excited about that.
Christine Holmberg (1:08:27)
We're community. We're building community.
Shawn (1:08:27)
I love that. Yeah.
Penn Street (1:08:28)
Yes.
Kim Wardlow (1:08:29)
Yeah. And, and is there anything you would like to tell folks about what will you be doing in the upcoming months?
Shawn (1:08:39)
Me?
Kim Wardlow (1:08:39)
Yes.
Shawn (1:08:41)
I am going back to Everest Base Camp end of May just for fun this time. And we're working on the national release of the documentary. So I think towards July we'll start the social media media campaign leading into and it'll be in theaters across the country. And I'm going to do some cycling events. We're working with the Challenge Athlete Foundation.
Penn Street (1:08:54)
Yay.
Shawn (1:09:11)
guiding eyes for the blind and then choosing to see and gooder. I think we're going to work with gooder glasses and do some do lots of yeah and do cycling some cycling rides with different groups across the country. And so that'll be I think that will be fun. And then the movie will be out for everybody to see. And then the only thing I'm training for right now is that I'm going to attempt to
Penn Street (1:09:18)
Nice, I know gooder.
Shawn (1:09:40)
the Grand Canyon solo, the double crossing in the fall. I don't know exactly when yet, but yeah. And then I've got a secret project we're working on and when I feel like it's falling into place, I'll let everybody know. Well, I told you guys in secret, but I'm not putting it out there publicly yet. But yeah, I keep myself busy. Yeah.
Penn Street (1:09:59)
so. Yes.
Kim Wardlow (1:10:04)
Well, thank you all for joining me. I think this has been such a great conversation and I think it's expanded and was even more about folks participating in blind sports, certainly women, but not just women. I think so much of what you all talked about pertains to everyone. Any closing thoughts? What is one thing you'd... want listeners to walk away with from this conversation. Christine, we'll start with you.
Christine Holmberg (1:10:43)
Never underestimate a person without vision. They will blow your mind and they can do whatever they want to do.
Shawn (1:10:47)
Mmm.
Penn Street (1:10:54)
Okay.
Shawn (1:10:55)
love that. Yeah, that's my motto.
Penn Street (1:10:59)
So.
Shawn (1:11:02)
Yeah.
Kim Wardlow (1:11:04)
And how about you?
Penn Street (1:11:06)
Get outside, get your butt off the couch and get outside on whatever level that means. If it means just doing a block or, you know, doing a little loop around your block. Cause then that block will, you know, maybe lead to a mile. Get your butt on a bike, get your butt up skiing, whatever it takes. Just keep, keep moving, keep moving.
Kim Wardlow (1:11:32)
And Shawn, you get the last word.
Shawn (1:11:35)
Yeah, I I think I want to just say that if you feel alone, reach out to me, we will find you community. It's easy to find me on the internet. But also like the, the question shouldn't be about whether you can or can't, it should be about what do you want to do? And let's figure out how to do that. Because it just makes your world so much bigger. and less limited having that mentality.
Penn Street (1:12:07)
Amen.
Shawn (1:12:09)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Wardlow (1:12:10)
Well, again, thank you to all of you for joining me. We will have the contact information in the show notes so you listeners will know how to contact any of the organizations we've had on today. And as always, I hope the information you've heard today helps you navigate your life with vision [Transcript ends mid-sentence in the source file.